Would you get lost while driving downtown if you didn’t use GPS? Do you find yourself struggling to read a book for more than five minutes without checking your phone? Would you have trouble writing a grammatically-correct email without Google’s auto-suggested corrections?

Do moments where you run up against your dependence on modern technology get you wondering about the ways some of your personal capabilities seem to be atrophying?

Graham Lee has spent years thinking about this idea. While he’s a digital skills educator who appreciates the way technology can enhance our abilities, he worries that our ever-increasing reliance on algorithms and artificial intelligence may be robbing us of elements that are vital to the core of who we are.

Lee is the author of Human Being: Reclaim 12 Vital Skills We’re Losing to Technology, and today on the show, we talk about some of those dozen endangered skills, including navigation, reading, writing, craftsmanship, and solitude. Lee offers case studies on how these skills enhance our humanness, why their loss matters, and how we can reclaim these capabilities and a greater sense of satisfaction and self-efficacy.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• We, the Navigators, The Ancient Art of Landfinding in the Pacific by David Lewis
• AoM series on learning how to navigate with a map and compass
• AoM Podcast #534: How Navigation Makes Us Human
• AoM Podcast #793: The New Science of Metabolism and Weight Loss
• AoM article on the benefits of solitude 
• Indian Running: Native American History and Tradition by Peter Nabokov
• Watchmaker Geoge Daniels
• Castaway Alexander Selkirk
• NotebookLM

Connect With Graham Lee

• Graham on LinkedIn

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Download this episode.

Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice.

Transcript Coming Soon

Help support independent publishing. Make a donation to The Art of Manliness! Thanks for the support!

Some people have experienced an interesting phenomenon: when they were actively and eagerly looking for a romantic partner, they couldn’t find one; then, once they stopped looking, someone came into their lives.

One of the paradoxes of life is that the more you desire something, the less suited you can be to have it.

A man with an overweening desire for a significant other not only evinces a desperation that’s unattractive to the opposite sex, but, should he manage to land a girlfriend anyway, will seek to hold onto her at any cost, engaging in the kind of subservient behaviors that will curdle the relationship in the end.  

A man who must be a success falls prey to making ethically questionable decisions or implementing cringe-inducing strategies that, though they generate short-term gains, will doom his efforts in the long run.

A man who has an immoderate longing to make a friend betrays a neediness that repels the very companions with whom he hopes to connect.

To win and secure the thing you seek, your desire must be potent enough to energize and animate, but not so all-consuming it smothers and corrupts. You must want it, but not need it.

A man is most likely to attract a partner when he already finds his own company companionable.

A man is in the best position to succeed when he can still be happy and whole if he fails.

A man is only fit to have a friend when he can live contentedly without one.

Help support independent publishing. Make a donation to The Art of Manliness! Thanks for the support!

You’re on vacation, sitting on the beach, watching your children play in the water. Everyone is full of sunshine and smiles. You think to yourself, “I’ve got a great family here. We’re doing alright.”

Then, you have another thought. You remember being a kid on vacation with your family growing up and the fun you had on those trips. But, your parents ended up getting divorced, and you and your sister no longer talk. Those good times by the ocean didn’t presage good times ahead.

We typically take stock of the state of something — our life, a relationship, an organization — at significant moments in time. Sometimes those are celebrations and successes, where we observe the extent to which feelings of warmth and momentum are in residence. Sometimes they are crises and emergencies, where we witness just how much a group does (or doesn’t) pull together.

These kinds of peaks and valleys can tell you something, to be sure. But a more accurate gauge of health is found in life’s more mundane moments.

It’s great that you and the wife are feeling a renewed attraction on your trip to Barcelona, but how often are you feeling the spark on a workday evening?

It’s great your church rallied around a bereaved parishioner, but how often are folks showing up to regular Sunday services?

It’s great when people are happy when everything about a situation has been designed to elicit that emotion, and are engaged when external forces prompt them to action, but how are things going amidst life’s ordinary routines?

It’s the little daily habits that predict how the future will unfold. It’s how you show up in run-of-the-mill interactions that foretells if a relationship will last. If you want a crystal ball as to what’s to come, just check how you’re doing on a Tuesday morning.

Help support independent publishing. Make a donation to The Art of Manliness! Thanks for the support!

The journey of personal development, of becoming a more excellent and extraordinary individual, can sometimes seem a little abstract. That’s why it’s helpful to imagine it as Mark Divine does, as a set of five metaphorical mountains to scale.

Mark is a retired Navy SEAL Commander, a professor of leadership, a yogi, the creator of fitness and mindset programs like SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind, and an author. He combines his two decades of military service with his study of martial arts and zen meditation to create the holistic warrior monk development philosophy that informs his work, including his latest book, Uncommon: Simple Principles for an Extraordinary Life.

Today on the show, Mark acts as a guide to the topography of the five mountains of personal development and the daily practices that will help you summit them. We talk about why mastering the physical mountain comes first and climbing the intuitional mountain comes fourth, the Navy SEAL breathing practice that will help you develop your metacognition, how the Japanese concept of ikigai can help you find your purpose in life, and much more.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Mark’s previous appearance on the Art of Manliness podcast: Episode #60 — The Way of the SEAL
• Box breathing
• Unbeatable Mind by Mark Divine 
• Staring Down the Wolf by Mark Divine
• AoM Article: 4 Key Insights From the Bhagavad Gita
• AoM Podcast #616: A Guide for the Journey to Your True Calling
• Sunday Firesides: You Don’t Have the Time, Not to Take the Time
• F3 Nation
• Ikigai

Connect With Mark Divine

• Uncommon website 
• Mark’s website
• Mark on IG

Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!)

Listen to the episode on a separate page.

Download this episode.

Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice.

Read the Transcript

Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast. The journey of personal development, of becoming a more excellent and extraordinary individual can sometimes seem a little abstract. That’s why it’s helpful to imagine as Mark Divine does, as a set of five metaphorical mountains to scale. Mark is a retired Navy SEAL commander, a professor of leadership, a yogi, the creator of fitness and mindset programs like SEALFIT and Unbeatable Mind, and an author. He combines his two decades of military service with his study of martial arts and Zen meditation to create the holistic warrior-monk development philosophy that informs his work, including his latest book, Uncommon, Simple Principles for an Extraordinary Life. Today on the show, Mark acts as a guide to the topography of the five mounds of personal development and the daily practices that will help you summit them. We talk about why mastering the physical mountain comes first and climbing the intuitional mountain comes fourth, the Navy SEAL breathing practice that will help you develop your metacognition, how the Japanese concept of ikigai can help you find your purpose in life and much more. After the show’s over, check out our show notes at aom.is/five mounds. All right, Mark Divine, welcome back to the show.

Mark Divine: Right. Super stoked to be on the Art of Manliness.

Brett McKay: Well, yeah, the last time we had you on was over 10 years ago, right? It’s been a while.

Mark Divine: Lots happened in 10 years, huh?

Brett McKay: A lot has happened in 10 years and I want to catch up with what you’ve been doing. So you got a new book out called Uncommon. What’s your aim with this book? Like what are you trying to do with this book and how does it pick up where you left off with some of the other things you’ve written about, like the way of the SEAL and things like that?

Mark Divine: Yeah. So really it’s kind of a sequel to Unbeatable Mind. Unbeatable Mind is kind of the whole training philosophy, more like a personal memoir, but it introduced the whole integrated vertical accelerated development that I’ve been now teaching since 2006, starting with SEALFIT and then Unbeatable Mind, the program. And in there, in that program, I kind of lay out how, first of all, we have the potential to become self evolutionary, meaning we can take control of our growth and we can accelerate it, if we do certain things. And that the idea of kind of that self mastery, that personal mastery is actually really important and motivating. And I found it through, obviously, martial arts and being a Navy SEAL and through Zen and meditation, but there’s many different paths to that. But, in Unbeatable Mind, I laid out the whole philosophy and I introduced this idea of the five mountains, which are the five developmental areas that we really need to take control of and then begin to access greater capacity.

But we do it in a way that is integrated, meaning it’s like the typical Westerner is taught that the body is something you drag to the gym and it’s just about health or looking good in a bathing suit or bodybuilding. And the mind, well, that’s really just what it is and it’s really a function of the brain and we have education and we have certificates and podcasts, but that’s the extent of mind training. And the emotions, forget about it. Most guys don’t even go there, but emotional development is something that happens when you break down. Intuition isn’t even talked about and spiritual life is really about your beliefs. And so, all these are kind of like separate aspects of your life. They’re not brought together into an integrated whole. So the experience of the typical Westerner is common and it’s one of kind of separation. You’re separated from yourself, you’re separated from others. These different aspects of yourself, which I call the five mountains, physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, and spiritual are also separate. And inevitably that leads to suboptimal performance, it leads to burnout, it leads to that quiet life of desperation that Thoreau talks about, because you’re not tapping into your full potential and living a life of purpose.

Brett McKay: Okay, so this is all about holistic personal development. Because I think you’re right. I think a lot of times when particularly guys in the West approach self-improvement, they just think, well, I’m going to get fit. And they might do really well there, they’re working out every day, increasing their PRs, but other areas of their life are suffering as a consequence of that.

Mark Divine: Right. That’s right. It’s one dimensional. And they say, well, I’m going to be fit. And then of course there’s tons and tons of folks out there, especially like my Navy SEAL peers are saying, be hard, right? Just be hard, go harder, suck it up, buttercup. And there’s times to be hard, but there’s times to be soft, right? You have to have that balance of the yin and the yang, the hard and the soft. And yet the soft isn’t taught and most guys are like, eh, that’s going to make me weak. Like when I used to train Navy SEAL candidates, which we still do, but on… I had a training center in Encinitas for 10 years and we trained them every day. We used to talk about, if the tsunami comes, which is every day in BUDS, SEAL training, would you rather be the mighty oak or the reed? And they’re like, well, some would say the mighty oak. And I said, no, the mighty oak is going to get washed away by the tsunami, but the reed is just going to lay down and then bounce right back up. It’s resilient. So the point we would teach them is that neither one is right or wrong. You want to develop both.

You want to be the mighty oak when you need to be and the reed when you need to be. And in order to do that, you need to develop both aspects, the hard and the soft, the yin and the yang. And the soft is found in the inner domain. So the physical mountain, you can develop the oak, develop your body to be strong and resilient, but you also have to develop that flexibility and the durability through exercises like yoga and core development and that type of stuff that you know you need to do, but most people don’t do it. But then the real soft side is found through the mental, emotional, intuitive, and spiritual development, where you’re really tapping into the inner power and insight and the sense of knowingness of when to kind of lay down your sword and lay down and let the tsunami wash over you so you can jump back into the fight.

Brett McKay: So you mentioned there you have spent your career post-serving in the SEALs training would-be Navy SEALs to get ready for BUDS, but you’ve also shifted to other types of personal development coaching. I’m curious in your experience with working with individuals who say they want to make a change in their life, they want to improve themselves, but don’t. What have you found? What keeps people from making those changes they say they want in their lives?

Mark Divine: There’s a lot of obstacles. Fear right, is one. So there’s this desire, but then there’s this fear of failure. There’s fear of change. There’s a fear of the unknown. And you can even take it deeper that there’s these underlying condition patterns that are fear-based or negative-based that keep coming up and tend to torpedo your efforts. So there’s so many people, and you’ve seen this I’m sure with your programs, that people will start and they’ll be all gung-ho, but then they meet an obstacle. And there’s always obstacles out there, right? But they haven’t learned that the obstacle is the way, as Ryan Holiday would say. And so when that obstacle comes and they feel some shame come up or some guilt that they screwed up or they feel some judgment from others, they immediately activate this kind of shame-based fear-conditioned thinking. And they say, well, I’m not worthy for this, or I’m not good enough, or this isn’t for me, right? This program isn’t right for me. And then they quit. And then the energy of like, oh, but I want to improve comes back up. And so they look for the next shiny thing.

They go to another program, and then they repeat this pattern over and over. And so people bounce around from program to program, and then they torpedo themselves because of this underlying unaddressed shadow self side, which is also the work of the emotional mountain in the book. That’s one of the major obstacles. The other one is people lack patience in our society that we’ve been taught that everything is supposed to be easy and quick. And as you know, and most of your listeners know that when it comes to development, patience is the virtue. And especially when it comes to the development of the inner domain, it’s not like tracking your deadlifts. You know what I mean? You can’t really point toward the development until after it’s happened. And maybe you have some evidence from someone like your wife or your significant other coming to you and say, man, something’s really different. And you’re like, oh, really? I guess you’re right.

It’s very subtle until it’s not. And so people start meditating or they start a breath practice or whatever it is, and they get into it, and maybe they get healthier because we’ve got a physical health component, fitness, etcetera. But the inner domain stuff, it’s just hard to see. And so then they develop this sense of uncertainty. Like they doubt the program really works. And so when they start doubting, then they stop adhering to the discipline daily practice. And then they have evidence, they begin to see evidence that it doesn’t work because the real juice in any developmental program is doing daily work. This even relates to physical development. It would be useless to go to the gym once a week and do all your weight training in two hours once a week. I mean, it would have some benefits, but you’re likely to get injured. You’re not going to make that much progress. Same thing with the work of mental, emotional, intuitive, and spiritual development. It’s a daily practice. And you can build it in different parts of your day, morning ritual, evening ritual, and then kind of throughout your day. Even the way you train physically can become an integrated practice.

And so people will think, well, I’m going to do all that work on the weekend, and it doesn’t work that way. So they lose faith, so to speak, that it works because they’re not doing the work. Those are some of the key obstacles.

Brett McKay: Yeah. So fear, the lack of patience. But you also talk about other things. It’s just, people have reasons like, well, I can’t make the change I want because I just don’t have the time or I don’t have the money. But you talk about, look, self-improvement or these things you want to do to improve yourself, it’s nothing fancy. You can do this in just 30 minutes a day. It doesn’t take that long. And I know when people say, I just don’t have the time to work out or I don’t have the time to do this sort of personal work, whether it’s managing my stress, I’m just like, man, you don’t have the time to not take the time.

Mark Divine: I agree with that.

Brett McKay: Right. Because eventually it’s going to bite you. And eventually you going to have to stop and you’re going to have to take care of the situation, whether you have a health scare and you have to spend time at the hospital or just time at the doctor office, or you have some sort of marital problem because you didn’t take the time to get your anger under control. You’re going to be spending a lot of time. So eventually you’re going to have to pay the fiddler. Might as well pay it on your terms.

Mark Divine: I agree.

Brett McKay: Instead of fate’s terms.

Mark Divine: Those two obstacles are nonsensical, time and money. First of all, the most profound practices are free. I have never… I’ve seen someone charge for breath training, but breath practice is free and you can learn it from a free video. And the breath, doing breath practice like our box breathing training every day is a profound practice that crosses all five mountains and will integrate you just if that’s all you did. That would be enough if you did it every day with awareness for 20 to 30 minutes. You don’t need a gym. I’m a big proponent of austere training, working outside, working with a team, working with cool tools that fit in the trunk of your car like sandbags and weight vests. And so physical training is free except for the cost of maybe a couple of tools and a pair of shorts and water bottle. You don’t need a fancy gym membership.

You don’t need a yoga studio membership, any of that stuff because all the… You just need a few tools, the simple the better, and then you just need to do them every day. And meditation is free. Then back to the time, like you said, you’ve got 30 minutes when you wake up in the morning because you’re feeling this 30 minutes was something. And generally speaking, it’s not going to be conducive to your growth, right? You wake up and you immediately start engaging, obsessive thinking, you’re checking your email or you’re reading the news. None of that’s really going to lead you where you want to go. So all you got to do is just take that 30 minutes, which you’re doing something else unproductive and just shift and ritualize a very productive morning routine, morning ritual. And that alone could be a game changer.

Brett McKay: Well, let’s talk about these metaphorical mountains that you’ve developed for personal development. And the first mountain is physicality, which is all about our physical health. Why did you start there?

Mark Divine: Well, my experience, and I’m a lifetime martial artist and also obviously a Navy SEAL and also a yogi, the physical body. First of all, the body and the mind are not separate. So when you’re training the body, you’re training your mind. And so you’re already beginning to work on the mental mountain. And we know that like all of those of us who are involved in competitive sports and endurance athletics, like there’s a definite aspect of it that is training your mind for concentration, for attention, for awareness, situational awareness, for even opening up the heart mind, especially with team sports, especially in the SEALs, that really had a profound effect on me to open up my heart and to really learn different ways to love human beings. The idea of laying your life down for your teammates is just an act of like supreme love. So physical development is training your mind. Let’s start there. Now, secondly, if you’re physically unhealthy or diseased or drugged up, then your brain, which is part of your body, is physically unhealthy and is going to be suboptimal.

So if we want to do mental development work and emotional development and intuitive, if we want to evolve and grow, we’ve got to start with the body and get the body really healthy. Because if the body is healthy, the brain’s going to be healthy, the brain’s healthy, the mind’s going to be healthy, and you’re going to have the capacity to do the work on the other mountains. At a very simplest level, you’ll be less distracted and distractible. You’ll be able to sit comfortably in meditation or mindfulness or box breathing without agitation, without the discomfort. You’re going to have more clarity because of the electrochemical balance in your body, your homeostatic balance, and all the stress will have been bled off through the physical training. And also, at a very practical level, some of those obstacles we talked about, another obstacle is that your body is not healthy and, or you’re injured. And that becomes a real big distraction for you, which captures your mind. So, you’re not thinking about meditation and yoga if you’re injured or if you’re sick. And so, I think this is really important because, again, our culture is working against us in most of these areas.

It’s working against us in health. The typical standard American diet is an unhealthy diet, so you don’t want to prescribe to that. Most of the food that’s sold barcoded and packaged is unhealthy for us. So we want to get back to really simple principle-based fueling our body, eating when we’re hungry, learning to fast, an intermittent fast, eating really close to the earth foods, whole foods, and high-quality foods. And also, learn to move your body every day, both through different forms of exercise and somatic practices. And get out in nature, like I said. Be outside every day because we’re not separate from nature. We need to be in nature, and there’s profound motivation and mood and both emotional and physical benefits for being outside. We want to have a community of practice, training with a team of people who are dedicated to our success and not trying to beat us all the time. So those are some of the things that we do to get healthy. It’s simple. Again, you don’t have to overcomplicate it. Even when it comes to physical training, everything you need is really free. You can get some tremendous workouts, programs. Even ChatGPT will gin them up for you.

The point is just to get out and do it and to be consistent with your practice. Figure it out and make it as important. The physical training and this exercise, the nutrition, make that all like a practice for optimizing the bodies and the brain so that you can really go deeper and deeper to plumb the depths of the mental, emotional, intuitive, and spiritual mountains so that you can tap into this raw potential that you have. In SEALFIT, we call it 20X. You’re capable of 20 times more than you think you are. But, that capability is found on the inside. It’s found in your field of potential and you’re hiding it from yourself through your distractions, your addictions, and through this outer focus, and even through an unhealthy body.

Brett McKay: I want to dig deeper on this idea of exercising, having a physical practice outside in nature and with other people because you’re really big on this. What does that look like? What do you do? And what are some things that our listeners could do to incorporate this?

Mark Divine: Fun stuff. Exercise should feel like play. It should be really joyful. So, one way that it’s really joyful is variety. I never do the same workout. Rarely do the same workout twice and if I do, it’s because it’s a really effective one and it’s fun and I’m just like, okay, this is a staple. Many people work, train harder. They think they need to train longer and you don’t. I train 20 minutes a day. I do 20 minutes of physical, of high intensity with weight training, and also 20 minutes of yoga. And so 40 minutes is pretty much all that I need. And the maintenance, it’s like a flywheel. All you do is just spin it every day. And once your body gets up to that ideal fitness, you don’t need to put in countless hours unless you’re training for something specific like the SEALs or to do some big event type thing. Then that’s specific training. I’m talking about optimized performance, generalized training. I train outside every day unless it’s pouring rain, but even if it’s light rain, it just feels really good. And I train with a team.

Right now, my team is my wife, but I’ve always trained with a team, starting with the SEAL teams and then in my SEALFIT program. And just there’s something about it because you learn to take your eyes off yourself and put it on your teammate and make sure that everything is safe and you’re not trying to beat them. A little healthy competition is good, but it should be coopetition. It’s not your ego. So training outdoors has a benefit emotionally. Like I said, it affects your mood. There’s something about being connected in nature that makes you feel connected to yourself. And it helps you develop more situational awareness and a feeling of connection, which then allows you to be more connected to yourself and to others. So there’s a deep emotional kind of spillover effect there. And then training with a team or even a significant other has incredible emotional mountain benefits. Like Sandy and I… My wife and I have been training together for several years now. And I kind of, I wish we had done it way sooner. And what an incredible experience it’s been for our relationship. And I say a couple of the trains together flourishes together. So by training together, again, you’re moving away from this just being a physical exercise by taking it outside.

Now it is a mental and emotional and even a spiritual kind of developmental practice and simplicity. As I said, lots of variety, but simplicity. The tools that I use, I still use a barbell here and there, but mostly it’s sandbag, kettlebell, weight vest, a lot of body weight. I still have a rowing machine, so that’s good, only because I don’t love running anymore much. I’ve done a lot of running in my life, so it doesn’t serve me anymore. But I do a lot of rucking and rowing and we put it all together, every day I was like, okay, what does the body need? Oh, okay, so we’re gonna do a four rounds, we’ll do 500 meter row, 10 bench wrists, 20 kettlebell swings, 30 situps, and we’ll do that. We’ll do four rounds of that or five rounds of that? It takes 20 minutes and it’s a phenomenal workout. Stuff like that. Go to a park, take your weight vest into the wilderness, take your sandbag. There’s some of the principles. Be be simple, get outside, make it fun, play, do it with other people, but do it every day.

Brett McKay: Yeah. Now, if listeners who are wanting to find something like that. Have you heard of F3 Nation?

Mark Divine: I have. Yes.

Brett McKay: Yeah. So we’ve had the guys who started it on the podcast a while back ago, but for those who aren’t familiar, it’s all around the world. There’s these boot camps, they’re free to go, they’re geared towards men. They’re in the morning, usually before work. Like 5:36, and they have these free body weight bootcamps…

Mark Divine: Awesome.

Brett McKay: Outside with other guys. So if you’re looking for that… I like the idea of fitness where it’s holistic, where you’re trying to also not only nurture the body, but also the soul by being outside and with other people. Check out F3nation.com, you can find a location near you, ’cause I’m sure there is one.

Mark Divine: That’s killer. Yeah.

Brett McKay: We’re gonna take a quick break for you word for more sponsors. And now back to the show, let’s talk about that second mountain, and that’s the mental mountain. And this is all about developing what you call metacognition. For those who aren’t familiar with this idea, what is metacognition?

Mark Divine: Sure. Well, that’s like the first step in the mental mountain. Metacognition is the capacity to think about your thinking, which requires you to develop the capacity to be able to watch your thinking, to be able to look at it. So the basic level of metacognition is like journaling where you’re like, “Okay, what was my thought process there? And was it effective? What were the results? What could I have done different? It’s like a personal debrief, but you’re thinking about your thinking, and a lot of people do that and they do it well. But mental mountain training for us is to develop the capacity to do that in real time. And I call that simultaneous mind, where you’re cultivating your witnessing capacity, your contextual awareness, where you can begin to experience your thoughts, emotions, and things that are happening to you as if from a distance, like you’ve partitioned the hard drive of your mind and you set up as the watcher, I call it the sentinel in my book, The Way of the SEAL.

And you’re looking across to the left hemisphere of your mind, which is the content awareness. And you’re actually able to see your thoughts coming and going and… But there’s a space between them, which gives you your power back. Because instead of just being merged with your thinking in an reactionary mode, you now have this space to be able to observe that thought and to orient yourself to it like the OODA loop and say, do I wanna like jump on board the bandwagon, or do I wanna just let that one go? And then you choose wisely. And so this is the beginning of development of discernment and wisdom. And so the path to get there is through training your mind really to narrow its focus. So that’s attention control and concentration training. And we use the box breathing practice for that.

So box breathing has this first fundamental layer is arousal control, bleeding off stress triggering the parasympathetic nervous system, all that kind of benefits that come from that deep diaphragmatic breathing. But because you’re breathing in that box pattern and you’re counting the reps, counting the… Five seconds in five seconds hold, five seconds out, five seconds hold, or you’re holding your attention there and you’re able to hold your attention on that pattern for longer and longer periods of time. And that develops concentration. So you have arousal control, attention control and concentration.

So what this does is it gathers up the energy of a mind that has been conditioned to be very distracted. That kind of bouncing ball thinking pattern, that monkey mind that they talk about in the eastern traditions. And so you’re able to begin to focus your energy more.

And then when you begin to work on this witnessing awareness, it’ll happen automatically. But we try to spur it on to facilitate it’s happening quicker through our practices and build mind. And so that what we have you do is kind of set up that watcher metaphorically in your mind, like we simulate it. And the more you do that, the more that simulation kind of dissolves and it becomes a real experience of witnessing. And first it’s intermittent, like you have to practice it and then you kind of slide back into, merge with your thoughts, and then over time you then crack open a small space that stays there, it’s permanent. And then the practice basically widens that space, that space between you as the observer, the witness, and the thoughts that are happening. This is a profound practice. It’s not… It has great benefits obviously for relationships because, you have the ability to kinda like intercept yourself when you go right into reactionary mode.

When you get triggered, it has great benefit for dealing with any kind of crisis because you become the calm center in the storm and you’re able to navigate your team through it because you’re non reactionary. And it’s got great benefits in terms of overall peace of mind and contentment because you become much less attached to the outcomes. Because you see those stories, those dramas of life as things that play out. And you see that, you begin to see that they play out over and over and over the same ones and you’re like, oh my God, look at that. I used to be just swept up in all that and now I can see it for what it is. And you can start to de-energize the negative patterns and replace it with things that are positive and productive. And you become… Life gets really simple and you become very aware of what to say no to and what to say yes to. And you stop getting tangled in things that you shouldn’t be getting entangled in. So that’s what the mental mountain is about. It’s not just packing more content into your head. It’s actually moving away from needing that content, toward developing wisdom.

Brett McKay: Okay. So for this, the daily practices that box breathing, correct, that’s gonna help you start being able to harness your attention.

Mark Divine: Right. Box breathing is the way in breath… Breath is the bridge between the body and the mind and the spirit. So like I said, at a fundamental level box, breathing is a physiological practice. You are slowing down your breathing, you’re retraining yourself to breathe six breaths per minute, which is five seconds in, five seconds out. Call that the tactical breath. And it brings great, great physiological, psychological emotional benefits and health benefits. But because you’re breathing that pattern, you’re also training that attention control and concentration. So now the box breathing is bridging between the physiological, psychological training the mind. Then we layer on the box breathing. The way we teach it is like a stacked practice. So now you’re deliberately training the attention control and the concentration while you’re doing the breathing practice. And then you add in the mindful awareness witnessing.

So there’s like four things now. Arousal control, attention control, concentration and witnessing. And that’s developing that metacognitive capability to be separate from the thoughts and emotions. At the end of our box breathing practice, then we do a visualization practice. And so now we’re training our mind’s natural capacity to imagine or fantasize. And we’re getting rid of the fantasies and we’re using our imagination to create a future reality in our mind. That is based upon an emergent concept of who we are and why we’re on this plane, why we’re on this planet, our calling. That’s that spiritual mountain, I talk about. That sense of like, what is our purpose? Why are we here? What are we gonna do about it? Then you create a vision of that and after your practice every morning, you evoke that vision and you add energy to it. And so what you’re doing there in a future state is you’re creating a memory of your desired future. It’s very powerful. So instead of like worrying about the future or catastrophizing, you actually remember who you really are and why you’re on this planet and what you’re supposed to do about it. And that becomes like a steady companion. It’s always there for you to remind you, especially in the stressful times.

Brett McKay: Okay. So you wake up, you could do the box breathing for five minutes after the box breathing…

Mark Divine: 20 minutes, I recommend.

Brett McKay: 20 minutes. Yeah. Up to… I think you said start off with five minutes, work your way up to 20 minutes eventually.

Mark Divine: Right. Minimum of five minutes. You can get a lot of the arousal control benefits. So a lot of people, Brett, they need to do this kind of in sequence as opposed to like all in one practice because they’re just not ready for it. They’re physically and mentally, they just need to focus on their health, all the things we talked about in the physical mountain. And then just box breathe for five minutes for the arousal control and just start bleeding off all that excess stress. Everyone’s in hyper arousal in the west. We’re overcommitted, we’re stressed, we’re rushing from here and there. The time commitments are crazy. And all of that is mind generated fantasy that’s causing an enormous amount of stress. So the box breathing basically re-energizes the parasympathetic pathway because it gets atrophied. You’re always stuck in this sympathetic nervous system response and you overcompensate with tons of coffee or alcohol or working out like a madman. So we wanna downregulate and that takes some time.

Brett McKay: Then as you extend those box breathing sessions that will allow you to exercise that focus and attention and concentration.

Mark Divine: Right. Exactly. And so when you’re ready, you extend the box breathing session to 10, 20 minutes, then you turn it into attention control concentration training. You work on that for a while until your mind gets really… It’s like sharpening that saw. That’s your one sword cut, that [0:28:20.6] ____ Just sharpen that saw into your mind is really sharp, really focused, less distractible. You can hold your attention on the box pattern without distraction for over 60, 70% of the time. Then you’re ready to move on to the mindful awareness, which is like setting up shop as the witness and beginning to cultivate the process of separating from your thoughts. It may have already started happening ’cause it, this… Like I said earlier, will naturally open up as part of this practice. That’s what happened to me with my zen practice. Zen practice was really a concentration practice.

I started at 21 four years before I went in the seals. And as my mind became more and more sharp and and able to concentrate, then quite naturally that witnessing capacity began to open up. I can’t explain exactly why, but I think that it’s just decreasing the clutter, like the concept of no mind or taming the ego or taming the monkey mind. It makes sense now because as you concentrate your energy into that one’s thought stream, just focusing on the box pattern, all those other thoughts that are distracting you, that you thought were so important, that you thought were you, they begin to settle down. And you realize that, “Wow, you’re still here, you’re completely aware, but there’s no thoughts in my field of awareness except for this pattern of breath. And then when you drop that off, you’re like, “Wow, I’m still here. And I’m not even doing that.” But then all of a sudden you’re like, wait, I’m thinking there’s a thought. But then you’re like, “Wait, that thought is happening. It’s not who I am. I’m this field of awareness. I, I am the ground of being, which this thought is arising.” It’s a profound shift in your whole mental makeup, which like I said is like a turning point in life.

Brett McKay: And then after that you can do a visualization practice.

Mark Divine: Right.

Brett McKay: And people might be hearing this and be like, visualization sounds pretty hokey, but you use this as a, you were a collegiate swimmer.

Mark Divine: Right.

Brett McKay: And you use this as a seal too.

Mark Divine: Visualization is a crucial skill. The body mind doesn’t really differentiate between things you visualize and the things you participate in or see. And so it’s the only place where you can have perfect practice is in your mind’s eye and it’ll have a profound benefit. So it’s good to visualize important physical activities, sporting events, but we can also, if you’re not involved in that, or even if you are, but it’s important to note that visualization can also be used for this idea of becoming who you’re really meant to be. So many of us are living those lives of quiet desperation or we’re trapped in these bodies where we’re like, God, I wish… I think I could be a lot healthier, better looking, lose this weight, be stronger. Yes, you can. But you gotta be able to see it first in your mind’s eye. And it has to be the right things too, Brett. You can’t be fantastical about it. You’re not gonna just visualize being superman or superwoman and have it happen. It’s gotta be right for you.

Brett McKay: I can see you doing a visualization practice for whenever you’re in a situation where your kids are just being crazy and they’re just annoying you. And instead of doing your typical grumpy, annoyed, tense dad routine, you visualize yourself being like, okay, how do I wanna be in that situation?

Mark Divine: Yes.

Brett McKay: Or this could be at work too, when you’re in a high intense negotiation where you’re dealing with a difficult employee, visualize yourself like, how do I wanna…

Mark Divine: That’s right.

Brett McKay: Act in that situation?

Mark Divine: Right. And you do that like the morning ritual, we call that winning in your mind before you step foot in the battleground of your day. So you dirt dive the day. Dirt dive is a term we use in the seals to like, we would mentally visualize and do all of our missions in our mind. And the dirt dive came from the diving missions. We would literally visualize it and walk the dive. You’re spending four hours underwater. You’re not coming up and peaking and taking bearings, you’re underwater. And so you gotta know in your mind, you run the whole thing in your mind. Well, same thing. You can dirt dive your day like you’re talking about. You see yourself being present and positive with your kids not getting triggered and reactionary, not sitting in your phone, checking your email.

You visualize yourself being there for them. Same thing with your important meetings and whatnot. And invariably those interactions go much smoother because your body, mind is already set the expectation that it’s gonna be a positive and productive situation. And the more you do that, then the more those become the new normal. But you can also, Brett, visualize like I’m saying this future me, we call it the future self, sometimes future me, which is like, it’s sometime in the future, it doesn’t really matter, but it’s like the ideal version of yourself. Most people never tap into this, but it’s the ideal version of yourself, your perfect health, perfectly fit, radiating youthful vitality and completely 100% aligned with your purpose and calling why you kind of came through this, to this planet to grow and to learn and to evolve. And your loved ones are healthy and thriving around you. And whatever way you engage with the world, whatever your mission is, is radically successful and you evoke this image and you add energy to it. So it’s very similar to like instead of dirt diving your day, you’re dirt diving your life.

Brett McKay: Oh, so that’s the second mountain. The mental part of yourself. The third mountain is the emotional mountain. And what’s interesting, I think some of the practice we’ve already talked about, the physicality and doing the box breathing and getting your mental game on track. That can go a long way in helping you climb this emotional mountain because as we’ve been talking about, our emotions are connected to our mind, ’cause sometimes, the emotions we experience are because of the thoughts we have, we learn that from cognitive behavioral therapy. And then also our bodies can cause our emotions to get out of whack. So just by exercising regularly, doing box breathing, doing this sort of things, it can go a long way to help regulate our emotions. But what other practices do you recommend people doing? So they get a handle on their emotions. So their emotions are, it’s not about stifling emotions, ’cause emotions is what drives us. But how we can guide our emotions to take us to where we wanna go.

Mark Divine: Yes. That’s great. So emotions and intuition are just different aspects of the mind, but I felt it’s helpful to kind of like parse them out because there are different practices and there’s different language around, especially the emotional mountain that you can benefit from, like the field of therapy and psychology. So in the mental mountain, physical mental mountain, we learn emotional control. And I think a lot of people think… A lot of guys especially think, oh yeah, I’ve developed that emotional control. I’m in control. And it’s helpful to be in control so you don’t torpedo certain situations or look weak in the middle of a crisis and those things. And so that’s great. It’s a valuable skill, but it’s part of it. It’s kinda like the oak part. Remember I talked about the oak and the reed?

You wanna be strong in the face of a crisis, but you don’t wanna be unaware of emotional patterns that are actually harming the team or harming you. And a lot of times when we’d stop at the physical and mental and we develop that emotion control, then we think we’re squared away when in fact you’re the one that’s actually the limiting factor. Because of some sort of pattern, and it could be really overt or it could be subtle, and it’s a recurring pattern based upon some sort of childhood trauma or some traumatic event in your life. And it’s unresolved. And at the time it happened, usually as in early childhood, these things happen. You didn’t have the skillful means to be able to process that situation, the energy in a way that was led to forgiveness and to letting the energy flow.

And so the energy gets trapped and the mind will associate certain feelings to that as well as thoughts that get triggered when that emotional pattern gets triggered. So these thoughts and emotions are really closely aligned because they’re born from the same energy. So for me, the emotional mountain work is really about developing the capacity to go back in your history, we call it recapitulation. And to go back and to reengage those situations that cause the pattern to begin with, to release that energy and to recontextualize it and to let go that you’re holding onto, to forgive yourself and to forgive others. It takes a lot of courage. This is why, again, a lot of… I kind of harp on men, you need to be doing this emotional work because otherwise you’re limiting yourself. You get stuck, you can have great strides in your physical and mental, but then you get stuck because these patterns just keep coming back.

It’s like you’re dragging a whole bag of hand grenades behind you and they just are spilling out. And so this is what my book, Staring Down the Wolf was. It’s like you gotta stare down the fear wolf and release all these negative patterns that you have. And it takes courage. But once you begin to experience the joy and the release of letting go of some of that stuff, then it becomes very motivating. You’re like, oh, this is just part of my development. This is the next step of my development. It doesn’t mean I’m a bad person or I’m a weak person, or I’m mushy for doing this emotional work. It’s just this is actually critical so that I can show up as a whole person and I’m not the one that’s the limiting factor on the team. Oftentimes the leader is the one who lacks the trust and respect because they’re trying to show up as the one who has the answers and is perfect or is in charge. And everyone knows that they’re not perfect and they’re not always in charge. They don’t have all the answers but when they see the leader doesn’t admit that to himself, then it shuts down the conversation.

Brett McKay: So yeah, in the book you provide how to go through this recapitulation practice so you can sort of get out of that loop you’re in. Journaling can be another tool in this and I imagine if things are really bad like therapy…

Mark Divine: Therapy, yeah.

Brett McKay: You might need to see a professional counselor to help you work through this stuff.

Mark Divine: And look at a therapist as a coach, right? You have a fitness coach, oftentimes you’ll get a nutrition coach. You might even have a cognitive coach like an executive coach who can help you think about your thinking and makes better decisions. Why not have an emotional coach? And some of them are very good.

Brett McKay: Okay, the fourth mountain is the intuitional mountain. I’m sure a lot of our listeners, typically our listeners are mostly guys, they go, intuition, what the heck is that? How do you define intuition and what role did intuition play in your career as a SEAL?

Mark Divine: Extremely important role. Intuition for me is knowing something without knowing how or why you know it. There’s several forms of it. First we have that gut intuition. We now know that your gut, your biome and the enteric nervous system is part of your brain system. It has neurological processing, it’s got neurons and so you are actually communicating with your biome with the millions of bugs down there. And for some reason they have access to information that your brain doesn’t and they’re trying to communicate that to you. The reason intuition mountain is fourth and not third or second is it’s generally not accessible to you if your body’s out of shape and it’s not healthy because your mind is captured at the outer level of the dis-ease, the imbalance. And it’s generally not going to be accessible to you if your mind is racing around and completely distracted and you’re constantly absorbed in distractions, TV, YouTube, email, text, this, that and the other thing, too busy, right? So you’re not going to be able to tap into an issue.

So you’ve got to train your mind to be less distractible and to do the things we talked about in the mental mountain. And it’s not going to be accessible to you if you have all these emotional patterns that are like, klaxons screaming at you every day. So you got to do the emotional work to let go and bleed off and to release that emotional energy which is so loud, I guess, or the feeling sensations overwhelm any kind of the subtle feelings that you need to be able to feel into or experience from the intuitive mountain, from your gut and from your heart. So by doing the work of the first three mountains, your intuitive side actually kind of naturally opens up. But then there’s things that we can do to facilitate it, to speed up that process. One is to trust your gut, so to speak, to trust your heart, to be able to listen carefully and quietly to the messages and then act on them, to believe it, to not override it with your fear mind or your rational mind. Most people override it and then they don’t trust it. In silence, back to our time in nature. Everything we’ve talked about has a spillover effect.

Like the training we talked about in the first mountain, all will affect all five mountains as I mentioned. We have to just parse them out so that we are clear about what’s happening and then we can accelerate the journey by adding some training. But time in nature and stillness really is probably the best thing for developing that intuitive insight. So you had the gut, the gut’s instinctual intelligence really is about avoiding danger or moving toward opportunity. It’s very kind of basic level survival and it’s experienced more as like a tug or a feeling in your belly or any time there’s a danger, it’s felt like a contraction or like I had an experience in the SEALs where I was walking up to a firing range to do some shooting and I felt the word stop. I felt it in my gut and it almost felt like a hand on my shoulder and I just stopped in my tracks. And the instant I stopped, a teammate of mine had an accidental discharge behind me and the bullet like whizzed by me. I felt the wind of the bullet by my right ear. If I had taken the next step, it would have gone in the back of my head. So that was the gut’s intuition saying stop or else we’re all going to die. Right? It’s intense. The second source of intuition is your heart.

So the heart also has neurological processing capacity, it’s got neurons, it’s got an incredible range of experience. Like the heart’s energy can be experienced from across the room, whereas the mind, the brain’s energy is trapped behind the cranium and so it doesn’t… You can’t really feel the force of it outside. It doesn’t project well except through the eyes. So the heart, when you learn to open up and sit and rest with your heart and to really feel into the heart, that’s the source of real empathy, like what other human beings are feeling, even thinking. And then also what you’re emitting. You get very sensitive to the fact that if you’re all agitated and you’re closed down, then guess what? You’re setting the conditions with those around you for them to be agitated and also to feel your closed down-ness and so you’re going to shut the conversation down. So you listen to that and you feel into that and you maintain an open heart and begin to really also sense what other people are feeling and how they’re doing and so then you can attune to that.

You begin to take their perspective and ask better questions and maybe not push as hard or just really kind of be a better leader, a better person. So that’s that heart intuition, which is empathy, compassion, wisdom. Then the third intuition is really, does come from the brain and it comes through the process of relaxing the mind to be opening up to what the yoga tradition calls direct perception, perceiving information or knowingness that is beyond knowledge. So it’s not content. It comes from this witnessing awareness that we talked about earlier where you suddenly just know something and you don’t really have any reason to know it or understanding how you know it, but you know it. And that’s profound. Like for me, that’s why I think sitting in silence and these practices are the most important thing that we shouldn’t waste time not doing it because all of my good ideas come from that direct perception these days. That’s where all the insights come from. So that intuition I call insight, seeing within, it’s so very important again, it’s so hidden from most people because they just don’t trust it.

They think it’s woo woo. But again you’re dealing with such a limited range of perceptual capacity. By training, through training the mind, the emotions and your intuition, you can open that aperture. So you begin to see an experience far more. We already know the brain takes in like vastly more information than it can process or will, is willing to process. Anything that is unusual or can’t be categorized, literally just get blocked or the gap just gets filled in. Most people wouldn’t believe it, but a lot of things that they see are just like painted in by the brain. It’s not really there. The Apache scouts knew this in their… In the way they would scout and track like they would literally, they call the hiding in plain sight. They knew where to stand because they knew that the Western mind, the way it was trained would look at that, take that information in. And if they were standing next to the tree, they would just see the tree. Or if they’re standing looking like a rock, they would just see a rock, but they’re actually looking at a human being. But the mind just says, No, it’s not a human being, it’s a rock. And so it paints a rock there. So that’s incredible.

So through this training and development process, you can open up your aperture. So you’re taking in and perceiving more information. And when you do that, it’s suddenly you’re like, Oh, I get it now. This is real. This is real. I’ve had… I had teammates and myself who had profound experiences in the military and the SEALs, all of it in the realm of intuition, like intuiting where IEDs were going to be planted or going off and being right about it. Most of the time, intuiting whether you’re going to be safe or not, I have a master chief friend who was at Mosul for reef, which they were trying to rescue the [0:44:57.3] ____ And he was with a special forces team and they were pinned down. And this guy just had this intuitive hit that it was his time. He needed to get up and basically take care of this himself. So here’s a SEAL just like gets up in the midst of this firefight and starts navigating and just taking out the enemy left and right. And literally fights his way into the compound, like destroys the enemy. And he describes the experience as this incredible intuitive moment where time slowed down and he could just see, literally see the bullets leaving the muzzles of the rifles. He can navigate around them. He could see which targets were the ones, right ones to take out and everything happened in this super slow motion.

And that was all because he had developed this incredible intuitive capacity to be able to perceive in this manner because the mind is really, it creates the construct of time and space and body experience space, mind experience time. So as you develop these skills and open up the aperture of your mind, then you have a different relationship to time and space. So that’s really what the intuitive mountain is all about is like getting yourself to where your whole experience of life is much more ephemeral. You really start to move beyond just like hard physical materialism to like, you start to experience the metaphysical and the psychic realms. And you have these experiences that are just profound and you see that it’s always been that way. You just kind of hid it from yourself.

Brett McKay: Okay. To climb that intuition mountain, continue your meditative practices. The other important thing I got from there, make time for silence. You don’t have to constantly be consuming new information. Just let yourself work with the stuff you already got. And then when you have one of those intuitive moments, act on it.

Mark Divine: Act on it. Trust it.

Brett McKay: Trust it. Let’s start with the final mountain which is the spiritual mountain. And I liked how you talked about this Japanese idea, I’m going to butcher how you say, Ikigai.

Mark Divine: Yeah. Ikigai.

Brett McKay: Yeah. Tell us about Ikigai and how that can help us climb the spiritual mountain of our lives.

Mark Divine: It’s a profound idea. I’ve been teaching for years that you can uncover your purpose. I talked about it as a calling earlier, but it’s inside. It’s like part of that heart intuition. It’s the primal urge that brought you into this place. It’s not about a job or a career. It’s about this archetypal energy. So for me, it was warrior, now teacher, warrior, leader, and teacher, kind of the dominant archetypal energies, which are my purpose. My purpose is here to fulfill that energy and to learn and grow. So everyone has that. So we want to do these practices to be able to sit in silence, be able to allow that to be revealed to us. That still quiet voice that you’re like, Oh, yeah. That’s it. But then of course, it’s not enough. Like our world needs us. Our team, our family needs us. So I’m not advocating that people become all like foo-foo spiritual and then suddenly become really aloof away from the world or apart from the world or go to an ashram or a Zen monastery. I mean, there are a select few who maybe that’s right for, but no. For most of us, like we need to be engaged in the world.

So this is all about showing up as a whole person, whole mind, not split mind. And to be able to show up in a way that is like in complete alignment, like that future vision self I described, it’s in complete alignment with your calling and your hair is on fire because you’re doing what you’re passionate about. You’re in alignment with your principles. But then the question is, Okay, so if I know all that, what am I going to do about it? What’s my mission? That’s where Ikigai comes in because the model says, Okay, given all that stuff I just talked about, you know why you’re on this planet, you know what you’re passionate about, you know what your principles are. Now what does the world need and how do your skills align with what the world needs? Great. That’s another layer to think about and reflect on in journal. And then what can you get paid for, right? Because we, a lot of people struggle with this when they’re trying to work through transformation. They’re like, Yeah, but I’m really passionate about gardening and being outside and everything, but there’s no career there or I’m walking away from banking. I don’t know how I could do that.

And so Ikigai kind of helps us with a model to really align our calling with meaningful work in the world in service. The whole idea of like, for me, spirituality, the spiritual mind is not about religion or dogma. Again, it’s about getting the mind to do a phase shift away from just thinking with the ego, merge with your thoughts to suddenly being, Oh, I see that. I’m actually a spirit having a human existence. So the spiritual mountain for us is to kind of deeply embody that idea of I’m spirit, having this human existence and making sure that the reason you came into this planet, you’re fulfilling, you’re embodying it, you’re fulfilling it. You’re not accruing any more negative karma. You’re getting the lessons that you need. And in order to get the lessons that you need, you need to be doing what you’re meant to do or else you’re going to miss the boat. That was the whole purpose of the Bhagavad Gita and the story of Arjuna and Krishna. Arjuna was a warrior, but he didn’t want to go fight his brothers and his cousins who were the opposing force who were claiming the kingdom. And he was having a moment like, I don’t want to fight. And most people in our society will say, Well, he’s evolved. He’s practicing Ahimsa or peace. But Krishna, who was his charioteer, who represented God had a little slap down with him and said, listen, Arjuna, you have to fight because that’s your dharma.

That’s why you came into this world. And if you don’t do it, then you’re going to accrue negative karma and you’re going to bring great suffering to yourself and you’ll have to come back and repeat this whole thing. So that fifth mountain, spiritual mountain, is all about living a life on purpose, in service, in a way that only you are meant to do on this planet.

Brett McKay: And so the practice for this is just taking time to actually think about those things.

Mark Divine: Yes.

Brett McKay: I think that’s hard for a lot of guys. They’re just so busy with life, work, family. They don’t make time for that.

Mark Divine: Well, sit with them is probably best and then think about it. If you’re just thinking, then you’re using the wrong side of your brain, the wrong faculty. It’s okay to do some thinking and you may start there, with like, what is my archetype? And there’s like the Enneagram and Jungian archetypes. You can start looking at those. You can look at the arc of your life and be like, Oh, yeah. Like in my early 20s, I was getting my MBA, CPA, working as a in public accounting, finance. But while I was sitting on that meditation bench, on the Zen bench after a year or so of training, I started to get these feelings, these sensations, these intuitive hits that I was meant to be a warrior. And so that created this disconnect. Now with that information, I could start contemplating like, Oh, that’s interesting.

If I’m meant to be a warrior, why am I in finance? That’s not a warrior-ly path. And so you start to ask better questions, but it wouldn’t have happened if I had just started thinking because I’d be wrapped up in coulda shoulda wouldas and judgment and what people are going to think if I do something different and I don’t know what to do. It’s different. So I think sitting in silence and allowing the, developing the capacity to be still, still of your thoughts, still of your emotions, to be able to feel those intuitive messages of your gut and your heart, especially in this case. But you can’t be quiet if you don’t have the physical, mental, emotional, and intuitive skills to be able to like sit in quiet and be able to listen to the messages that tell you, Oh, this is my calling. And what will be revealed to you is this sense of how you’re supposed to show up in the world.

So everything we’ve talked about really like the… It’s hard to say… Like there are practices, like we have a practice in the spiritual mountain around like visualizing yourself at the end of your life, writing your own epithet from the perspective of a best friend looking back at your life as if you’re at the end and saying, well, how did I live? How did I do? And it can be very revealing. Stuff like that. Also visualizing your future self, which I talked about first, that starts out kind of as a imagination, but eventually you start getting information again from your subconscious or from your intuitive realm that starts to fill in some holes and gaps and it just begins to shift. So those are great practices.

And then that metacognition and contemplation about like where you think you need and want to be and what you’re supposed to be doing based upon your growing clarity of your purpose and principles and passions versus kind of what you’re doing right now and how you’ve lived in the past. And that can lead to some great insights.

Brett McKay: Well, Mark, this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

Mark Divine: The website readuncommon.com we’ll still have, we’ve got some cool bonuses. We’ve got some discounts on gear and supplements as well as a real cool journal. And also I’m going to do a group training for folks who order from that site. So it’s readuncommon.com. People can find me at my website, markdivine.com or email me at info at markdivine.com the social media I’m at @realmarkdivine. Last name’s spelled D-I-V-I-N-E. Thanks so much Brett for doing this. This is really enjoyable. Thank you.

Brett McKay: Thanks Mark. It’s been a pleasure. My guest here is Mark Divine. He’s the author of the book Uncommon. It’s available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. You can find more information about his work at his website, markdivine.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is/fivemountains, where you can find links to resources as we delve deeper into this topic.

Well, that wraps up another edition of the AoM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at @artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives and while you’re there, sign up for our newsletter. We’ve got a daily option and a weekly option. They’re both free. The best way to stay on top of what’s going on at AoM and if you haven’t done so already, I’d appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcast or Spotify. It helps out a lot. If you’ve done that already. Thank you. Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think will get read something out of it. As always, thank you for the continued support. And until next time, it’s Brett McKay reminding you to not only listen to AoM podcasts, but put what you’ve heard into action.

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In the 1991 comedy What About Bob?, Bill Murray plays Bob Wiley, a highly neurotic and anxious guy who seeks the help of an egotistical and ambitious therapist named Dr. Bob Marvin (played by Richard Dreyfuss).

Dr. Marvin wants to be the next Dr. Spock — a psychologist who’s a household name. He thinks his recently published book, Baby Steps, is just the ticket to fame and fortune.

When Bob visits with Dr. Marvin about his numerous psychological issues, Dr. Marvin gives Bob a copy of Baby Steps. Bob embraces the Baby Steps philosophy wholeheartedly and proceeds to take literal and figurative baby steps out of Dr. Marvin’s office. Comedic hijinks ensue when Bob crashes Dr. Marvin’s family vacation and baby steps over the boundaries between therapist and patient.

While What About Bob? uses the idea of “baby steps” to poke fun at the world of therapy, it does capture an idea that can sound cliche but is nevertheless true: small actions, when pursued consistently, are typically the most effective way to affect big changes in our lives.

You know—

Kaizen.

Little strokes fell great oaks.

Pound the rock.

But here’s something I’ve noticed in my own life: While I cognitively understand that change typically comes through small actions, I still often find myself balking at taking the necessary baby steps to start the change process.

I’m sure some of you reading have experienced the same thing.

In today’s article, we’ll look into why we often hesitate to take baby steps and what we can do to embrace them.

Why We Give Up on Taking Baby Steps Towards Change

There are two main reasons why we’re often reluctant to take baby steps towards a goal: 1) baby steps can make us feel inadequate, and 2) baby steps seem too small to work.

The Sense of Inadequacy, or “This Makes Me Feel Like a Big Dumb Baby” Effect

A big reason why we might be reluctant to take baby steps to change is that doing so can make us feel inadequate.

Psychologist Dr. Ross Ellenhorn talks about the indignity of baby steps in his book How We Change (And Ten Reasons Why We Don’t). Ellenhorn observes that small steps can demoralize us because they constantly remind us of the distance between our current state and our desired outcome. Each baby step can feel like a mini-disappointment that highlights the work that still needs to be done to reach our goal, amplifying our feelings of inadequacy and ineptitude. Taking baby step after baby step forces you to repeatedly face the fact that you’re not where you want to be.

To counter the constant mini-disappointments that often come with baby steps, we just stop taking them altogether. We avoid baby steps because baby steps make us feel bad.

I’ve noticed this in my own life.

I have a tendency to catastrophize things. I have a negativity bias that can make me Eeyore-like. I don’t like it, so I’ve made efforts to get a handle on my Eeyore-ness for most of my adult life.

One of the tactics cognitive behavioral therapists recommend using to overcome catastrophizing is to catch yourself doing it and then take a minute or two to question the assumptions you have that are contributing to your downer mood.

But I find myself balking at putting this habit into practice on the regular. Why? It makes me feel stupid that I have to question my erroneous, overly pessimistic assumptions over and over again. Every time I question my negative view of a situation, it reminds me that I have a melancholic mentality.

Here’s the inner dialogue that goes on when I start taking the baby step of questioning my negative assumptions and feel grumpy about it:

“Man, look how dumb I am. I’ve got to go through this list of questions to see if my negativity bias is correct or not. It makes me feel so stupid because usually the answer to these questions is that my assumptions are distorted. Other people I know don’t have to do this. Why do I have to do this? Oh yeah, because my brain is broken.”

I go into a spiral of doom and gloom. I start feeling bad about feeling bad, all thanks to taking the proven baby step of questioning my cognitive distortions.

Because the baby step of questioning my distorted outlook makes me feel bad, I just stop doing it to avoid those frequent “mini-disappointments.”

How dumb is that? I’d rather experience the long-term pain of having an Eeyore-like brain than experience the short-term pain of doing some cognitive restructuring by questioning my erroneous assumptions — even though the latter option will lead to less pain overall, and maybe even an ultimate end to the pain.

You might see this same dynamic in yourself if you’re, for example, trying to lose weight.

You make small changes to your life. Maybe you start taking a morning walk or tracking your macros.

But when you weigh yourself or look at yourself in the mirror after a couple weeks of effort, you’re reminded that you’ve still got a long way to go to reach your desired weight. It demoralizes you. Every time you take your walk, and you’re huffing and puffing, you’re reminded that you’re out of shape. Every time you agonize over the choice of getting seconds or not, you’re reminded that you have difficulty controlling your eating.

To avoid these mini disappointments on the path to losing weight, you just give up altogether. You’d rather be overweight, and not have your overweight-ness thrust in your face as often, than be constantly reminded that you’re overweight as you take baby steps towards shedding the pounds.  

Pride, or the “Baby Steps Are Too Small to Work” Effect

When people decide to make a change or pursue a goal, they tend to take a “go big or go home” approach.

Instead of establishing a weekly date night, you spend $5,000 to attend a couples retreat in California.

Instead of paying off a little of your debt each month, you invest in a bitcoin scheme that promises outsized returns.

Instead of taking a 30-minute walk each evening, you decide to wake up at 4:30 a.m. to take 10-mile long runs. Carry the boats, baby!

Why do we do this?

One factor (which colors all the rest) is pride. We think simple solutions aren’t for us, because we’re not simple creatures — we’re elite, extraordinary beings. Taking small steps is for plebes. We’re sure we’re smart enough to figure out a solution that will allow us to speed up the process and leapfrog ahead.

Another factor at play is impatience. We think about paying down our debt over five years time or shedding fifty pounds by losing two pounds a week for six months, and it feels like it will take for-ev-er. We want to skip as quickly as possible to the final result.

And then there’s the fact that committing to big steps makes us feel good. When we decide on an audacious plan to change our lives, we get a rush of excitement. In getting to see ourselves as the kind of person who’d do something difficult and/or uncommon, we get some of the rewarding, self-affirming feeling that comes from achieving a goal, even though we’ve yet to begin tackling it.

Finally, we frequently choose big actions over small ones simply because we think that baby steps seem too small to catalyze the change we want to bring about. We tend to equate complexity and difficulty with efficacy and worth. It doesn’t seem like small steps can really get us where we want to go. Small steps aren’t flashy, and they don’t manifest immediate, obvious results. It’s hard to hold in your mind, and believe, that small strokes will, eventually, fell great oaks. Small steps derive their power from the compounding effects of effort over time, but on a day-to-day basis, it can feel like nothing is happening.

Getting Over the Indignity of Taking Baby Steps

You can overcome the indignity of baby steps by changing your attitude about them.

Get in the humility zone.

If you want to change, there are a couple of things you have to settle in your soul.

The first is that you are, right now, not where you want to be. You need to accept where you are on the map.

Be frank in assessing your current position, but don’t make any value judgments about it.

If you’re overweight, don’t say, “I’m a big fat dumb dumb who lacks willpower.” Instead, tell yourself, “I’m fifty pounds overweight.”

If you’re grumpier than you’d like, don’t say, “I’m a negative Nelly who’s got a dumb Eeyore brain.” Rather, tell yourself “I’ve got a negativity bias.”

Once you accept where you’re at, you can start moving somewhere else.

The second thing you have to accept is that nearly all lasting change requires small, incremental steps taken over and over again. There is a part of yourself that is constantly wondering, “Isn’t there some other way to get where I want to be?” You must quiet that question and absolutely settle this truth in your soul: There is no other way.

You are not that special. You, yes you, will, like every other human, have to take consistent baby steps to reach your goals.

How do you go about accepting these two realities?

It’s easier said than done, to be honest.

What works for me is just silently thinking or meditating about where I’m at and the inevitability of the way forward. Other people find writing these realities down in a journal to be helpful. If you don’t mind feeling a bit like a weirdo, you can say out loud: “I’m fifty pounds overweight and I can take small steps to slowly reduce my weight.”

Do whatever works for you.

Regardless of the option you choose, exercising it will require an ample dose of reality-affirming humility.

Learn to enjoy the process.

Instead of seeing baby steps as reminders of your shortcomings, flip the script and learn to enjoy taking them.

We’re big proponents of using the power of “like” instead of willpower to reach a goal.

If you want to exercise more, choose an exercise you like doing. You’re more likely to stick with it.

If you want to eat better food, find healthy foods that you enjoy eating.

If you want to lose your temper less, make it a game to see just how stoic you can remain when your kid is having a meltdown.

When you succeed with your small steps, acknowledge it, appreciate it, and reward yourself for the win. It will help you stay motivated to keep going.

Ultimately, overcoming the “indignities” of small steps requires a shift in mindset. By accepting and embracing the inescapable realities of transformation, you can use the underappreciated power of baby steps to bring about some very grown-up changes.

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Some people have no problem attracting others. Everyone wants to work with them, to be their friend, to have them on their team.

Other people have little luck in making and keeping relationships. Their overtures for connection are routinely rejected, and they typically cannot understand why.

We often think that the formation of relationships is based on mysterious vibes and ineffable chemistry.

And there’s certainly a lot of that at play.

But at its core, the decisions people make as to whom to befriend, hang out with, and prioritize in their lives come down to a much more straightforward calculus: the visceral judgment as to whether someone will be a benefit or a burden.

The human experience is difficult. The load each individual must carry is heavy. Thus, people look for others who will lighten their load, rather than increase it.

People like people who listen at least as much as they talk.

People like people who forward more compliments than complaints.

People recoil from those who underline life’s ugliness, passively wait to be filled and entertained, and drift around as morose, mood-darkening storm clouds.

People move towards those who offer beauty (whether in the appearance they were born with, the style they cultivate, the homes they adorn, or the art they create), provide new knowledge and fresh fun, and are able to look on the bright side of life.

People value those who in their friendly visage, abundant humor, and light-casting perspective are the bright side of life.

In every relationship, people take turns giving and receiving. But everyone looks for those who feel like a net gain, rather than a net cost.

So, if you struggle in making connections, instead of wondering, “Why don’t people like me?” ask yourself, “What can I do to add more to people’s lives?”

Help support independent publishing. Make a donation to The Art of Manliness! Thanks for the support!

There has been a lot of media coverage and dialogue about the struggles men are facing in the modern day. There’s been some solutions forwarded to these struggles as well. Among these, Dr. Anthony Bradley has a more surprising idea that you don’t hear every day: revitalizing college fraternities.

Anthony is a research fellow and professor and the author of Heroic Fraternities: How College Men Can Save Universities and America. In the first part of our conversation, Anthony offers his take on the state of men in the modern day, the difference between heroic and disordered masculinity, the insights that a writer from the mid-20-century can shed on the forms that disorder can take, and why many men today are choosing the path of resignation. We then turn to Anthony’s idea that college fraternities can be the training ground for virtue. We talk about the loftier origins of fraternities, why, at some universities, they devolved into organizations that have become symbolic of the worst traits of masculinity, and Anthony’s six principles for reviving the potential of fraternities to shape great men.

Resources Related to the Podcast

• Neurosis and Human Growth: The Struggle Towards Self-Realization by Karen Horney
• AoM Podcast #758: The Epic Story of the Making of The Godfather
• Anthony’s framework and list of resources for the course he teaches on the masculine journey

Connect With Anthony Bradley

• Anthony’s website

Listen to the Podcast! (And don’t forget to leave us a review!)

Listen to the episode on a separate page.

Download this episode.

Subscribe to the podcast in the media player of your choice.

Read the Transcript

Brett McKay: Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness Podcast. There’s been a lot of media coverage and dialogue about the struggles men are facing in the modern day. There’s been some solutions forwarded to these struggles as well. Among these, Dr. Anthony Bradley has a more surprising idea that you don’t hear every day; revitalizing college fraternities. Anthony is a research fellow and professor and the author of Heroic Fraternities: How College Men Can Save Universities and America. In the first part of our conversation, Anthony offers his take on the state of men in the modern day, the difference between heroic and disordered masculinity, the insights that a writer from the mid 20th century can shed on the forms that disorder can take and why many men today are choosing the path of resignation.

We then turn to Anthony’s idea that college fraternities can be a training ground for virtue. We talked about the loftier origins fraternities, why at some universities they devolved into organizations that become symbolic of the worst traits of masculinity and Anthony’s six principles reviving the potential of fraternities to shape great men. After the show’s over, check out our show notes at aom.is/fraternities.

All right. Anthony Bradley, welcome to the show.

Anthony Bradley: Thanks for having me.

Brett McKay: So you are a professor who spent a lot of time thinking about and writing about men and the issues they face. And you’ve actually, you’ve taught a course about the masculine journey. I’m curious, what sparked your interest in the male experience and the development of manhood?

Anthony Bradley: This actually goes back to when I taught high school when I was in grad school. This is late ’90s. I noticed as a high school teacher that the girls were doing great and the guys were not. I mean, it was demonstrable. I would stand in the hallway and the girls were standing up straight, shoulders back, dedicated, focused, ready to go, dialed in. But the guys, heads down, shoulders slumped over, walking very slowly, lost, discouraged, confused. And this was 20 years ago. So about 20 years ago, a lot of people, mostly conservatives were saying, Hey, there’s a problem. There’s a problem. There’s a problem. People in the culture said, No, no, no, there’s nothing. But I saw it back then. And then as I continued my academic journey and became a college professor, what I’ve seen at every school I’ve taught, is it’s the same.

Girls are doing great, dialed in, focused, motivated, successful. Guys are falling behind. Right now, we have a situation in America, where boys are falling behind girls in every grade, in every subject, in every school, in every county, in every city in America. So we’re having some major, major problems right now. And I’ve just seen it as someone who teaches college. About the fall of 2021, we begin to see a major shift, that about 61% of all new students were women. Last year, about 42% of all bachelor’s degrees were awarded to men. That’s it. So there’s something happening. We have about 9 million men right now who are not working.

And this is prime working age between 24 and 54, who are not a part of the economy. So there’s something wrong. And as I decided to come up with a course, my whole goal was to get guys ready for the workforce and ready to be married. And so what I noticed that guys just needed a little motivation. They needed some direction, and some content of vision for what it means for them to be great men. And once they have that, once they have that, it kind of lights a fire under them and I’ve seen them soar.

Brett McKay: So in your work, you talk about two types of masculinity; disordered masculinity and heroic masculinity. Let’s talk about disordered masculinity. What does that look like?

Anthony Bradley: So disordered masculinity is a self-orientated masculinity. I talk about that in the book in three parts really, that a disordered man is focused on himself. He is a navel-gazing man. He is first self-serving. That means that he really uses his relationships in terms of what he can get out of people. He kind of uses people. It’s also self-centered. And by this, I mean, it’s someone who kind of thinks about themselves always first. They may think about others later, but me first is always the mantra. The last part of disordered masculinity is the self-preserving man.

And this man really doesn’t care about anybody else. I mean, this guy is the narcissist. And so this person who is self-preserving, only wants to pursue things that benefit himself and the heck with everybody else. If he has to hurt people, step on people to climb to the top and win, he will most certainly do it. So the disordered masculinity that we see in our culture really elevates the self and centers the self at navel-gazing and being hyper-focused on one’s own advancement, often to the detriment of others.

Brett McKay: It’s something you’ve done in your work is you’ve brought in this post-World War II psychologist. I never heard of her before, but I thought her insights were really interesting. Karen Horney. What are her ideas? How did that influence your idea of disordered masculinity?

Anthony Bradley: So, Karen Horney was a psychiatrist in Brooklyn after World War II, up until the 1950s, and she wrote this fantastic book I highly recommend called Toward Neurosis and Growth. And Karen Horney’s work was instrumental in me helping guys to see some of the patterns and habits in their lives over the years. I have used her work in a lot of my classes now for 15, 16 years. And she basically says this, that all of us, because we are born in homes of imperfection, have uncertainties. We have insecurities. We have what she calls a very basic anxiety. Now, anxiety basically means that we have some sort of apprehension or tension or uneasiness about the anticipation of danger. That the bottom might fall. We think about, Oh, no. This might not go well. We kind of think about that. And being raised in the context of imperfection means that we are suspicious about things. We are often insecure about the future. And all of us have this. This is not necessarily something that is unique to men or unique to women or age brackets. This is just a part of the human experience, having certain questions and doubts and insecurities about the future.

Now, what she does, though, she says that we tend to handle these things in one of three ways. We either, with these uncertainties or these anxieties, we tend to either take them out on people. She calls this the self-expansive solution. And by this, we seek to master the uncertainty. We want to conquer it and win. We want to dominate the vicissitudes of life. This person who’s self-expansive is the narcissist. Sometimes the self-expansive person is considered type A. This person is about winning. This person is often very vindictive and above all else, is going to use other people in their lives to always be on top.

The second way that she talks about the way that some people handle the uncertainty and the vicissitudes and the anxieties of life is by being a doormat. She calls this the self-effacing solution. And by this, we handle these things by being the classic people-pleasing nice guy. You might call this person the simp of all simps, the beta of all betas. I mean, this is the guy who is neurotically focused on making sure that no one’s ever mad at him. This is the guy who comes across as someone who’s kind and pleasant, but the reason they’re always doing something for other people, is that they are desperate to have other people’s validation and love and affirmation. So they’re kind of chronic, chronic people-pleasers.

The third way she talks about this is the self-resignation solution. And this primarily is what I’m seeing massively across the country right now. This is people who are handling the uncertainties, the doubts, the anticipation of a potential danger in the future by simply checking out. I mean, they have resigned themselves from participating in the sorts of things that would facilitate dating, marriage, college, jobs. They just want to be left alone. I mean, this is the classic guy who is playing video games all day. He just wants to smoke some weed, maybe get drunk every now and then, maybe have sex with a couple girls every now and then, but he just wants to be left alone.

The self-resigned guy has a sign over his door that says, do not disturb. Just leave me alone. I am done with all of this. I’ve completely checked out. And then lastly, she says that what this kind of creates for a lot of men is, the idealized self. I mean, this is the ideal person that we think we must be or ought to be or should be, in order to be acceptable to ourselves and to be acceptable to others. And this is the birthplace of people being fake. This is the birthplace of people wearing a mask and not being truly themselves. Now, the difficult part is that you can have an idealized self. You can be a fake person and be successful. You could end up being the CEO of a company, the president of your high school class. You can end up being the governor.

Our culture is set up so that the way the market economy works is that you can be a terrible human. You can be a narcissist. You can be vindictive and be successful. And unfortunately, there are a lot of guys who are this way and it’s been normed She really does a great job of calling out. I would say one last thing here is that when guys are people-pleasing, when they’re self-effacing. They sort of cut off their face, they often find themselves in relationships with people who are narcissists and self-expansive. And that might be relationships of friendships. It might be employer-employee relationships.

But lastly, and maybe more dangerously, they may marry a partner who is self-expansive. They might marry a narcissist and they are in a relationship where someone controls all of their lives, makes decisions for them. It’s often a context of emasculation. So Karen Horney’s work, I think, is really important and it’s been incredibly helpful for my students and the men that I’ve had a read on.

Brett McKay: Okay. So that self-expansive idea, that could be like that Andrew Tate type of masculinity. Win, dominate, be the alpha bro. And then there’s that self-effacing, the Mr. Nice guy. The resignation one, as you said, you said you’re seeing this mostly amongst the men you interact with or the young men you interact with. What do you think is going on there? What is it about modern life that nudges more and more men towards self-resignation?

Anthony Bradley: Yeah. That’s a great question. I think there’s something different about the way our economy works today than it did, say 50 years ago. And of course, a hundred years ago, plus. Guys are lost. They don’t know where they fit into this current economy. For one, we don’t need men’s bodies anymore. We don’t really need men’s physical strength anymore. So a lot of guys don’t know where their bodies fit into the economy.

We don’t really need men to pick up big things anymore and move them. I recently saw a video of a construction site, an excavation site, where these massive, massive tractors and excavators were being driven remotely offsite somewhere else with a joystick and a screen. So you don’t even need men to be physically driving bulldozers anymore. And so, men don’t often know where they fit. I think also is there’s a lot of neglect. We have not been paying attention to boys, particularly in the K-12 space.

We’ve been focusing so much on girls that we’ve just neglected affirming, validating, building up guys. A lot of guys lack a lot of fatherly attention, fatherly affection, fatherly encouragement. So there’s a dad deprivation problem as well. And this is a really sensitive topic that could probably be an entire episode is mother enmeshment. I mean, we often talk about the ways that men suffer from father wounds, but there is a pretty massive trend, long-standing data on the fact that moms who were neglected or abused when they were girls often become neglectful and abusive moms. And so there’s a lot of boys who grew up with pretty toxic and narcissistic mothers.

And there’s a lot of mom enmeshment, where moms use their sons to get the emotional and sometimes physical support, affection that they’re not getting from their dads. And a lot of guys just don’t want to have any of that anymore. They don’t date or anything like that.

But we also have this ridiculous overemphasis on “toxic masculinity”, where being a guy is bad. There’s some shame there where we place all of the world’s social ills, all of the evil in the world on the backs of men, that men are evil and that being a man is bad and also evil. And there’s a lot of emasculation there. So you add all those things together. And a lot of guys are like, Listen, I don’t know how to date. I don’t know where to work. I’m dangerous, you’ve told me. I don’t have anything to contribute. I don’t think that anybody needs us. No one’s asking us to do anything. So I’m out. I’m just going to resign and live my life.

So just leave me alone. And if guys are constantly told that they are the problem, why would we expect anything differently? Why would we expect anything different from a population of men who are told, that if they exert any sort of influence, if they exert any sort of agency, that they might hurt people just by being physically present. And a lot of guys, I see this with guys beginning in middle school, all the way through their mid to late 30s, they are done. Absolutely, 100% done. Throw in the towel. Give me a 10 count. I’m out. Leave me alone. I’m going to play video games, have a part-time job, smoke some weed. And hopefully I’ll figure out how to have a life where people might want me.

But we’re seeing this more and more, and it just reflects back on the data that we’re seeing. One, spikes in anxiety and depression. Two, spikes in suicide, particularly two age groups, 15 to 24. There’s a spike right now, about three times more likely to commit suicide than girls. Also, major, major suicide spike is between the ages of 45 and 54. That’s the next spike. And the last suicide spike are men who are over 65. So there’s a motivation void.

Then there’s also, lastly here, a purpose void. And that purpose void, I think it is really at the root of so much of the resignation, is that guys just don’t have a purpose anymore. And they’ve been told that if they have any purpose, it’s potentially harmful to others.

Brett McKay: Okay. So that’s disordered masculinity and the potential sources of it. What is heroic masculinity?

Anthony Bradley: Yeah. So the way I framed heroic masculinity is simply this. These are men who use their presence and their power, and their strengths and their creativity for the benefit of those around them. They are primarily thinking about the ways in which their presence makes other people’s lives better. It is the exact opposite of the self-preserving and the self-centered, the self-orientated approach. It’s a way of thinking about the fact that my presence somewhere makes other people’s lives better. I am adding value to others. Everything about me, everything about him makes his environment, makes his surroundings better. When I leave the room, people are much better off than they were before I came.

My friends are better. My siblings are better. My parents are better. It’s a way of thinking about how is it that I can add some sort of value and benefit with my gifts and talents and creativity and my strengths, so that other people can thrive and flourish. And the beauty of this is simply this. If we had massive, massive armies of men who were committed to this level of mutuality, our local communities our states, I would say even our entire country would radically transform into a place where everyone thrives. And it’s not this idea that it’s just about me. The idea is I’m here to help others. And if everyone’s helping each other, we all benefit. No one loses.

And I think lastly here, that when guys really do give themselves to others, that’s where they find themselves as well. They sort of find vision, direction, calling, by giving themselves to others. It’s actually a win-win when men do this. And the history of men and masculinity since the beginning has been primarily this, giving themselves to others for the benefit of others, and in doing so the man finds his own purpose and meaning and significance.

Brett McKay: How is this others-oriented idea of heroic masculinity, how is it different from being a doormat?

Anthony Bradley: That’s a great question. So the doormat is people pleasing for the sake of receiving love, receiving validation, receiving affirmation, because they don’t think they’re worthy of it unless they please other people. The heroic vision, the heroic man knows he’s a person of value. He’s a person of power. He’s a person of strength. He is a person who has something to offer. So he’s not people pleasing. He’s serving people because he knows he brings something of weight to contribute. He knows that he is doing something and has real capacity and agency and self-efficacy that he can do something to change the course of history. He has a weightiness about himself. He is confident, and he is secure, and he is stable in terms of his self-perception.

So he’s not doing it for the sake of receiving love, for receiving validation and affirmation, because he knows he already has it. So he’s offering out of abundance. He’s not simply kind of rolling over, hoping that maybe, maybe if I do what everybody says, then and only then will I get the validation and affirmation that I need to feel good about myself. I’ll say this lastly here. The doormat, the people-pleasing person, is so pathetic and neurotic that he is willing to be hurt and abused and manipulated in order to receive love, affection, and validation, and significance, and community, and connection. The heroic man will never do that because he knows his value. And so if someone tries to manipulate him, abuse him, he’s gonna protect himself. He’s gonna fight against it. And if necessary, he’s gonna walk away. The people-pleasing person will never walk away from abuse and manipulation because they need it because it gives them a sense of purpose and meaning, and they use it as a way to stay connected.

Brett McKay: I think all of us have probably encountered men who have that heroic ideal that you’re talking about here. They’re full of vitality, they’re confident, and yeah, when you’re around them, you just feel better and they improve your life. And in your recent book, Heroic Fraternities, you make the case that college fraternities can be a place where we cultivate men who embrace heroic masculinity. But I imagine a lot of people who are listening or hearing this and they think, what, fraternities? How could that be? Like, this is the place where binge drinking happens and hazing deaths and sexual assault. They’re thinking animal house. And I want to unpack this idea that you have that fraternities can be a place where we cultivate heroic masculinity. But before we do, what’s been your experience with college fraternities?

Anthony Bradley: So I got into this really… Well, two things. One, I myself am a fraternity member. So I pledged Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated at Clemson University when I was a student there. I have to give a shout out to Clemson Go TiGERS. And I was in a fraternity. I was very involved in Greek life, both in my own fraternity, but I also had a lot of friends in other fraternities. And I saw some of the benefits that I talk about in my book. And as I have been thinking about it, what really brought this to my attention in recent years, and I can’t remember, I think it was, I was teaching about fraternities in the course, ’cause we do a section in the course that I teach on the history of fraternities. And I just noticed in the news that about once a week, a fraternity was getting suspended somewhere.

And I set a news alert to have my inbox filled. And about every week, somewhere in the country, at some university a fraternity was getting suspended for the types of things that you were mentioning. And I thought, Man, something is desperately wrong. Now, what’s interesting, though, is when I began to dig in the data, and I’m following about 2200 fraternity chapters right now across the country, what I discovered is that those stories of the hazing and the sexual assault, et cetera, that’s actually the minority. I think the reason that people have that is that that’s primarily the ones that make the news cycle. But what you don’t hear are the fraternity chapters, which is the majority, where guys are really longing for brotherhood, and camaraderie and friendship. And guys are helping each other do great things.

It is a mixed bag. And I think that reputation does sustain at some universities more so than others. I think it has a lot to do with the campus culture, particularly, sort of Power Five football schools, ACC, SEC, Big 10, Big 12. I mean, that sort of Greek life is different than you might see at some of the smaller liberal arts schools. But right now, things are a bit up in the air. But I just want to say for the record that largely, primarily, those negative stories are really more of the minority.

Brett McKay: We’ll talk about the state of fraternities here in a bit. But let’s talk about the history of fraternal life in the United States. When did fraternities start and why did they start?

Anthony Bradley: So it’s really fascinating because when we look back at the history of them in light of the way that we see them. It’s gonna be a real head scratcher. So in the early, early 19th century at Union College and in 1825, a group of veterans were missing the camaraderie of serving together. They were missing their brotherhood experience. And so there at Union College in Schenectady, New York, there were a group of five men who decided to form a secret society. And the society was for the purpose of being social. It also served the purpose of increasing their literacy. They wanted to refine themselves as men.

And they really wanted to sort of sort out how do we maintain some sense of fun and brotherhood and camaraderie, the kind of things that we had when we were doing our military service. So that very first social fraternity there at Union College was named Kappa Alpha Society. And that was the beginning of the social fraternity life in America. Now, remember the year is 1825. So this is the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. And that’s when life really began to change in the lives of men. Men started, for the first time in American history to primarily work away from home. They were not in close proximity with their children. And we also had a situation where boys were going off to college in really, really high numbers. Now, they were leaving home and they were also disintegrated from community.

So they needed some camaraderie and they needed some friendship. And this is one of the things that fraternities really came to provide for these men, was a way to have a home away from home, a surrogate family, but also continue to be refined in terms of their skills. So in the early days of fraternities, singing was a requirement. It was necessary. Most fraternity houses in the early days had a piano. Somebody could play the piano. And so they would sing together all the time. You could think of glee clubs back in the ’30s and ’40s was a major, major part of college life. They were also literary societies, so they read the classics together. These guys would get together on the weekends and debate the classics. They would debate philosophy.

They would debate Shakespeare. Rhetoric was really also huge, so they had to learn how to speak. They would practice public speaking. They would critique public speaking. In most fraternity houses in the 19th century, the libraries in the fraternity houses were actually built better than the libraries at the university in terms of their holdings. So they were mainly literary societies that were forming these virtues and values in men preparing them for statesmanship and preparing them to be the leaders of business and politics and culture. And that really was the framework that explains so many of every fraternity’s vision and mission and values. If you look at all of them today, they all are going to have some variation on the theme of character formation and camaraderie and friendship and brotherhood, just like they did when it began back in 1825.

Brett McKay: We’re gonna take a quick break for a word from our sponsors. And now back to the show.

Okay. So fraternities served a bunch of different purposes. One was, it was a home away from home, a second family when a young man went away to college and went away from his family of origin. And then it was also a place where they could cultivate themselves, learn how to become well-rounded gentlemen. So a place to develop character and also to a place to develop intellectually. They read, they debated, they studied the classics together, and the Greek names of fraternities, they hearkened to that classical education. So that’s why fraternities started. How did college Greek culture develop the bad reputation that it has today?

Anthony Bradley: So the first major dip in Greek life was in the 1920s. You might think about the Roaring Twenties. And unfortunately, so much of that culture began to spill over into fraternity life. Now, what’s really fascinating, particularly as colleges and universities in the country in the 19th century, some had began to be co-ed. Fraternity men were fairly certain, very clear on this. They were never going to dishonor the reputation of a girl on their campus. I mean, that was an absolute… A non-negotiable principle. We were never going to treat women poorly on our campus. Now, off-campus was different. So there’s some times in the Roaring Twenties where guys would leave the campus and go down into the city and things like that. Bars and brothels and things like that. So the Roaring Twenties was sort of the first step.

But as soon as World War II started, as soon as the Depression started, as soon as we got into World War II in the late 1930s, early ’40s, things changed. A lot of those men, of course, during the war were fighting, they came back and were different men. So after the 1940s, fraternity life almost died. It’s really fascinating to think about a World War II veteran who came back and to think that a bunch of lads who maybe didn’t serve was gonna have him do pushups was just unreasonable. It’s like, No, I’m not doing that. I’m not gonna be hazed or whatever by a bunch of guys that didn’t even serve. So there was this major, major dip. So fraternities were in decline after the war. They were also in decline in the 1960s because they were part of the establishment. So there was a rebellion against institutions.

And what’s fascinating is that as they were declining in the 1960s, those numbers went down. There was a film about a particular fraternity at Dartmouth that really did change the nature of Greek life. It was called Animal House. And anyone who is a Gen Xer or older will know that movie in 1978. And Animal House single-handedly, and there’s really good data on this. It really does speak to the power of film. Animal House is the reason. I can say this confidently that Animal House is the reason for the negative stereotypes that we see in fraternity life across the country today. So that movie was watched by us. I’m a Gen Xer. So what happened in 1978, a bunch of Gen Xers watched that film. We watched Animal House, and we also watched a bunch of other films in that same time era, that same genre, sort of coming of age, like Porky’s and movies like that.

So a bunch of guys saw that movie and said, when I get to college, I wanna do that. And that’s what they did. A bunch of Gen X guys went to college in the ’80s and the ’90s and did exactly what that movie did. And that was the beginning of it shifting. And so every fraternity film after Animal House is a variation on that culture that was really normed and embedded by that one media production. And that’s when we began to see things sort of get off the rails, so to speak, and Greek life becoming something that it was never intended to be. And we see some of that in the sorts of negative stereotypes that you mentioned earlier.

Brett McKay: Yeah, on that chapter about the influence of movies on Greek culture, it reminded me of the influence that mob movies had on mobster culture, like The Godfather and Goodfellas. What’s interesting about those, we did a podcast with a guy who did a book about the history of The Godfather. And so The Godfather was based on mob culture. The author of it, Puzo, he looked at mob culture and he put stuff in there. But what ended up happening was mobsters started imitating the godfather as well. We got to act this way because like the godfather, that’s what they do in The Godfather. So I thought the parallel was interesting.

Anthony Bradley: Yeah. It basically became a social contagion. And this is what we do in America. This is what happens when adolescents consume media products. They take them, they embed them, they imprint them. And then later on they act them out.

Brett McKay: And so I think what happened was you had men who maybe had a type of disordered masculinity. Maybe they’re like the self a grandizement type of man. And they saw fraternities as this place where I could go there and act this out. And because fraternities were diminishing, their numbers were small, they’re like, Yeah, we’ll let you in. And so those men with disordered masculinity in some fraternities took over the fraternity.

Anthony Bradley: Absolutely. What’s interesting, and this is something that I learned from Chad Frick, he was the president of one of the fraternities at Clemson. He made this point really, really clear that fraternities don’t make men terrible, terrible men join fraternities. And they use the fraternity context and culture as a place to exercise, I would say, being self-expansive. Being disordered. They were disordered before they came and they were looking for a place to exercise their disordered behavior.

Brett McKay: So you mentioned earlier the state of Greek life today. I think the point you made is that a lot of our ideas about what fraternity life is like we get from the big, the power schools. So I went to the University of Oklahoma where Greek life, I don’t know what it is like today. I’m sure it’s still big, but it was really big when I was in college. I imagine the Greek life at the University of Oklahoma is gonna be different than Greek life at, say, a smaller liberal arts school.

Anthony Bradley: Yeah. And that’s in part because the chapters are smaller. So, I mean, there are some chapters across the country where there’s like 20 guys in the whole chapter, whereas at some of the big football schools, there might be 200. And so managing a chapter of 25, 19, 20-year-olds is different than managing a chapter of 200.

Brett McKay: So from the research you’ve done, the statistics, what’s the state of things like drinking and drug use amongst fraternity members?

Anthony Bradley: This is really fascinating. I think Gen Zers in general are drinking less. And so one of the things that surprised me when I was doing these interviews and the data is that I found more and more fraternity members who don’t drink at all. In fact, I found fraternity presidents who don’t drink at all. So overall, what you see in Greek life is gonna mirror some of the trends that we see with Gen Z in general. So there’s gonna be less alcohol use. There’s actually declines in sexual activity. One of the alarming trends, though, is a tick in substance abuse. So taking pills and marijuana and things like that, those things are on the upswing. But things like drinking are actually on the decline.

And this is, by the way, true in general, that you’re not going to see in Greek life anything different than you’re going to see in male populations in colleges in general. They’re not going to be any worse necessarily than what you see on the campus. And so as we see these trends with Gen Zers, in general, those same trends are gonna manifest themselves in fraternity life.

Brett McKay: What’s your take on the hazing part of the pledge process?

Anthony Bradley: Yeah. So again, back to Animal House, I think one of the problems with hazing, and maybe we can talk about this later, is a lack of a very clear rite of passage for men to know that they’re men. So for guys to go from boyhood into manhood. And what happens is that guys will make up their own rites of passage. When rites of passage aren’t given, when they’re not bestowed, teenagers and young adults are just gonna make them up. And what’s happened in the context of hazing, the whole point of hazing if I could talk about in a positive sense, is to use obstacles, to use challenges as a way to help men see new capacities and strengths that they did not have and to build a sense of camaraderie.

That’s the whole point of it, to make this sort of pledge class bond together. And because of disordered masculinity and a lot of recklessness, the absence of very clear markers of rites of passage. They’re just making them up as they go along. And even worse, there is a problem in a lot of fraternities of escalating. So when I was in college, they might have had us go do some sprints on the street. Well, 20 years later, we’re now, we got to do sprints on the street, but now we can’t wear shoes. 10 years after that, well, if they do sprints on the streets with no shoes, well now they have to have no shoes and then be in their underwear.

So there is this sort of odd escalation that we have to top the previous generation or the previous year’s obstacles, and there’s just no direction. And that’s what I found so sad, is that these guys have just been left to figure this stuff out on their own, and they just haven’t been given the investment of how do you do the sorts of things that hazing is meant to accomplish?

You might think about it in the same way that men join the military, just kinda strip themselves of individualism, and to see themselves as a part of a group and to be challenged to accomplish things as a group together, to build camaraderie, to give a sense of “we”, instead of “me”, and for a guy to find out that he has some new capacities about himself.

I’ve seen this across the country, when guys are given a clear vision of what that entry point is, what the rite of passage is, and they’re given a new imagination of how to introduce obstacles to achieve those ends, you don’t get the kind of hazing and the dangerous hazing that puts people’s lives in danger that we see on far too many campuses.

Brett McKay: You talk about what bull elephants can teach us about bad behavior that occurs in hazing. Tell us about that.

Anthony Bradley: So there was some work done in South Africa at a nature reserve, and because of the ways in which they have to manage those, because of the park restrictions, they often have to move populations around in order to manage that land well, and there was a section of elephants they were trying to move in and re-populate, and what they did is they moved a bunch of adolescent elephants over to this one side of the park when they noticed that all these other animals were dying, particularly rhinos were being killed, and it wasn’t poachers because the rhinos would have their horns intact. And what they realized is that these rhinos are being killed by these adolescent elephants, these immature elephants who were having massive spikes of testosterone and it was making them aggressive.

They were going into this sort of rut season fairly early, there’s a hormone that gets secreted behind their ear, and it makes them really, really aggressive. And what was really fascinating, they were trying to figure out what was going on, how come these adolescent elephants were killing… Just randomly killing rhinos. So what they did is they transported some mature bull elephants. And what was so fascinating is that the day, the very day the bull elephants showed up, the killing stopped.

In fact, it actually tempered the testosterone secretion of these adolescent elephants. They became less aggressive because the more mature elephants were just physically present, and I also heard there’s a video of one of these bull elephants body slamming one of these adolescent elephants. It was just fascinating to see that just simply the presence of maturity and the very presence of age really had a way of tempering the aggression, helping these young lads manage their aggression, manage their sexuality in these elephant populations.

And sadly, I think that’s what we’re missing on a lot of college campuses today, and what we need is simply the presence of older men, chapter advisors, alumni who are older, to just be around the guys, and that would overnight change a lot of the pathologies that we see, because the presence of older men really does have a positive effect in providing some direction and emotional regulation for young men. It sort of teaches them how to be great men.

Brett McKay: Yeah. So if there was a chapter advisor or an older alumni, if the students were thinking of doing some really crazy hazing ritual, when they have the influence of that older advisor, they might think twice.

Anthony Bradley: Absolutely, right. One of the things that… We tell a chapter is like, You really shouldn’t do anything during the pledge process that you would not do in front of the guy’s dad or in front of your dad, because if these older men are just physically present during the process, they’re the guardrails to tell this developing brain of a 20, 21-year-old in leadership, Okay, that’s too far. You can do that, no, you can’t do that. And they need that sort of direction, and the best chapter advisors are the ones that provide that, and there are very good chapters across the country that are able to have that level of direction by older men.

Brett McKay: So in response to deaths and sexual assaults that happen in frat houses, many colleges, their response is just to suspend the fraternities, or some colleges have gotten rid of Greek life altogether, and you argue that these measures actually don’t solve the problem, why not?

Anthony Bradley: Because if you look at the data, as soon as you remove a fraternity, sexual assaults don’t necessarily decrease, hazing doesn’t necessarily decrease, because what the guys are gonna do is they’re gonna form their own little secret society and do it anyway, so you can get rid of fraternities but they might have hazing in band, they might have hazing in a club, they’re gonna have hazing… We’ve seen this at some universities with their athletes who are playing for the school, so it doesn’t actually work in terms of trying to rid the campus of those sorts of pathologies. Those pathologies happen whether a person is in Greek life or not. I think the difference is that Greek life gives more opportunities and easier access for terrible people to be terrible, but terrible people are on everybody’s campus, and so getting rid of Greek life doesn’t really help. And then secondly, and more importantly, by removing Greek life, you lose the opportunity for formation.

If I was a college president, I would think about it this way, this is the last opportunity that you would have as a college president to isolate a group of guys and form their virtues for the good. It would be virtually impossible to do that on a campus without Greek life, without college fraternities, and college fraternities really do serve as a place of formation.

Brett McKay: What do you think fraternities need to do to become this heroic fraternity that you have in mind? Walk us through the roadmap of… From rush pledge and beyond of your ideal fraternity?

Anthony Bradley: Yeah, I think fraternities, first and foremost, need to, more broadly speaking, recapture, I’d say maybe restore their original values and virtues. Whenever I travel and speak to a chapter of any fraternity anywhere in America, one of the things I do is I call them back to their original vision and mission and values. Those things are already there, every fraternity in America has heroic values embedded in its own mission and vision and virtues. So first of all, I wanna really sort of call them back to those things and think about ways to live those out. I do have sort of a six-step process, sort of six principles, these are not necessarily in order of importance, but these are sort of the six things that if fraternities really focus on, they will never get suspended, ever, and they will always add value to their campus. If fraternities do these six things, presidents will want them around and if they threaten to leave, a president will beg them to stay. Here they are.

First is Friendship and Acceptance, so fraternities that allow guys to not have an idealized self, to work through their anxieties, to be vulnerable, there’s a sense of camaraderie that you’re accepted not because of what’s on the outside, but what’s on the inside.

You can be a person that is imperfect. It’s really important for guys to have at least two or three friends that they can be completely vulnerable with, that knows all of their faults and weaknesses. One of the things that we see in the new cycle regularly are guys who get taken out because they have some Achilles heel weakness that destroys their marriage, destroys their career, destroys their company, et cetera, and when guys have at least a couple of people that know those things, that’s the best protection against that. So we wanna have context where there’s real friendship, there’s real vulnerability and real acceptance.

Second is brotherhood. One of the things that really sets guys on fire is knowing that they have a group of guys that have their back. It is the birthplace of risk-taking. If you know that a group of guys has your back, no matter what, you will do great things. And the brotherhood aspect of fraternities, to foster that on purpose, is really, really key. You can do amazing things in the marketplace, you can take a risk and ask a girl out. If you know that if you fail, if she rejects you, you’re gonna have a bunch of guys, who are gonna build you back up and put you back on the horse, sort of get you back out there, so that brotherhood piece is really, really important, and vital.

Guys will run through a wall, if they look behind them and see they’ve got 15, 20, 30, 100 guys cheering them on. Thirdly here, is initiation. We talked about this a few moments ago. There needs to be a sense of a rite of passage to recognize that you’re actually transitioning these young men from boyhood into manhood, and to be deliberate about these stages, to be deliberate about creating a context where there is a rite of passage where a guy knows that by the end of the four years, that he is gonna be a much stronger, better, more virtuous, more dynamic man than he was when he began, and to really plan that out. You’ve got four years, you’ve got three or four years with these guys, so what kind of things could you do to be making sure that you’re embedding and integrating the values of your fraternity throughout the entire life of a brother in the chapter, so that rite of passage, that initiation part is really important because the main opportunity with initiation is to help a guy find what he’s good at, to help him find his strength.

College is a place where guys leave their home and they can be developed and formed, they can find what they’re good at, and then they’re sent back into the community, so fraternities should really think of themselves as places where they’re forming men’s virtues and values, they’re helping them see what they’re good at, they’re helping them see their strengths, so that when they leave, they can make an even better, more deliberate, concentrated, clear contribution to the communities that will be there to receive them.

So that’s really important that their brothers really want to invest in helping other guys find that what they’re good at. Fourth here is fun. A college is supposed to be fun. I mean, heck, life is supposed to be fun. The data is really, really clear that having fun is really important and necessary for good mental health. It protects against anxiety, it protects against depression, it protects against suicidal ideation. It actually protects against, in many respects, some of the pathologies in substance abuse that undermine striving, and so fraternities need to think about ways to have fun. Now I talk about virtuous fun. Fun that adds value of people’s lives.

I am convinced that if we got these guys in a room and introduce some more creative ways for them to have fun beyond what they see in the movies, they would do it, but what happens? They default to what they’ve seen on screens instead of thinking about being creative about new ways to have fun that actually makes people’s lives better. Fifth here, is to be developmental, to work on character development and professional development, and this is where the alumni networks are really, really important.

One of the great added values of being in a chapter is to be in a context where alumni and even peers are going to set you up so that you can have a successful career and to use those networks really deliberately. So I think the best fraternities are the ones that have really involved alumni who are on campus quite frequently to help these guys manage entering and sustaining success in their career. Lastly here is character development, and this goes back to the vision, mission and values of the fraternity in general. Every fraternity, again, across the country, has fantastic values, and what’s it mean to develop virtue, moral virtue, character in these men, so that the reputation that they have on campus, and the reputation they’ll have in society is that they are the kinds of people that are going to make our context better.

I’ll give a quick example of what this looks like. One of the things that I invite chapters to do is to think about what does it mean for us to develop a reputation of being the safest place for women on campus, the best place for women on campus, the safest, the most ennobling place for women to be, and to think about that as something aspirational, what do you need to do to have that reputation? I can tell you right now, that every chapter I’ve spoken to across the country, when I invite them to have that reputation, they get excited about it, they want to have that reputation because of the negative stereotype. They celebrate that because that’s the kind of men they actually want to be.

Lastly here, I think in general, people don’t understand this, but fraternity men want to be great man, that’s why they joined a fraternity. The problem is, they don’t know how. And if we can do that, I think we can really change the trajectory of men in college and Greek life in general.

Brett McKay: Well, Anthony this has been a great conversation, where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

Anthony Bradley: Great, so I have two places, one, you can just Google my name, I have a website, dranthonybradley.com, but also you can also just Google Heroic Fraternities and you can see more about the book and more about the work in general.

Brett McKay: Fantastic. Well, Anthony Bradley, thanks for your time. It’s been a pleasure.

Anthony Bradley: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Brett McKay: My guest today was Dr. Anthony Bradley, he’s the author of the book Heroic Fraternities, it’s available on Amazon.com. You can find more information about his work at his website, dranthonybradley.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is/fraternities, where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. The Art of Manliness website has been around for over 16 years now, and the podcast for over 10, and they both have always had one aim, to help men take action to improve every area of their lives. To become better friends, citizens, husbands and fathers, better men. If you’ve gotten something out of the AoM Podcast, please consider giving back by leaving a review or sharing the episode with a friend. As always, thank you for the continued support. And until next time, this is Brett McKay, reminding you to not only listen to the AoM Podcast, but put what you’ve heard into action.

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A lot of self-improvement advice and content feels empty. And there’s a reason for that. It often offers routines and habits to practice, but doesn’t offer a strong, overarching reason to practice them.

That’s why the self-improvement advice of the Founding Fathers is particularly compelling. Though they were imperfect men, they had a clear why for trying to become better than they were. For the Founders, life was about the pursuit of happiness, and they equated happiness with excellence and virtue — a state that wasn’t about feeling good, but being good. The Founders pursued happiness not only for the personal benefit in satisfaction and tranquility it conferred, but for the way the attainment of virtue would benefit society as a whole; they believed that political self-government required personal self-government.

Today on the show, Jeffrey Rosen, a professor of law, the president of the National Constitution Center, and the author of The Pursuit of Happiness, shares the book the Founders read that particularly influenced their idea of happiness as virtue and self-mastery. We talk about the schedules and routines the Founders kept, the self-examination practices they did to improve their character, and how they worked on their flaws, believing that, while moral perfection was ultimately an impossible goal to obtain, it was still something worth striving for.

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We probably think we use social media as an entertaining distraction.

But the deeper drive underlying our urge to keep scrolling is the simple fear of missing out.

We ever feel we’re one swipe away from finding ideas that will help advance our careers, inspire our creativity — maybe even allow us to live forever — and that if we step away from our feeds, we will end up left behind and left out.

As an antidote to that (often subconscious) worry, it’s helpful to think of someone like, say, Benjamin Franklin, who lived before social media existed, and yet still managed to invent, create civic organizations, write books still quoted today, and help found a country.

When we consider Franklin’s social-media-free-yet-still-fully-flourishing life, certain assurances arise that we may lay hold of:

Trust that over thousands of years, humans have developed avenues — conversations, books, podcasts — that offer sufficient exposure to ideas that will optimize your thinking and creativity, while not sabotaging the attention span necessary to synthesize those ideas into something useful and original.

Trust that if you do have a problem in your life, you will feel prompted to seek out an answer, and can go directly to it, rather than wading through hours of TikToks for the solution to randomly arise.

Trust that if a scientific discovery was made that significantly enhanced human well-being, beyond the standard protocol of eating right, exercising, and getting sufficient sleep, it would be all over the news, and you wouldn’t have to watch a hundred reels to hear about it.

Trust that if social media was essential to living your best life, then given the proportion of the population who uses it, and the amount of time people spend on it, society’s health, happiness, and innovation would be leapfrogging forward, and it’s safe to say this isn’t the case.

Trust that Benjamin Franklin, as well as Plato, da Vinci, Tolstoy, Eisenhower, and every other eminent artist, philosopher, and leader of the past millennia (and your dad in 1990, to boot) was fine without Facebook, reddit, TikTok, X, and Instagram, and, if you decide to cut out or cut back on using these platforms, you’ll be fine too.

Help support independent publishing. Make a donation to The Art of Manliness! Thanks for the support!

Note: From the 19th through to the mid-20th century, educational institutions — from elementary schools to colleges — sought to not only develop students’ academic abilities, but to cultivate, as one textbook from 1849 put it, their “virtuous and noble sentiments.”

In 1916, the Character Education Institution, a kind of think-tank for research on moral education in schools, held a contest for the best morality code for children — a code which explained the fundamental basics of living a moral life. The winning entry was penned by William J. Hutchins, a college president. It was then checked against lists of 650 potential moral acts, 92 “desirable human characteristics,” other contest entries, and literature on moral education, and subsequently revised and expanded accordingly. “The Children’s Morality Code for Elementary Schools” was published in 1926 and students were encouraged to uphold its tenets by forming classroom clubs dedicated to its support. We have republished it below.

THE ELEMENTARY MORALITY OF CIVILIZATION

Boys and girls who are good Americans try to become strong and useful, worthy of their nation, that our country may become ever greater and better. Therefore, they obey the laws of right living which the best Americans have always obeyed.

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